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[fontforge-devel] Funding FontForge

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[fontforge-devel] Funding FontForge

Dave Crossland

Hi

http://consortium.pharo.org/web/Membership seem like a nice idea

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Re: Funding FontForge

Behdad Esfahbod-3
You won't let Fontforge die, do you?!

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 8:53 AM, Dave Crossland <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi

http://consortium.pharo.org/web/Membership seem like a nice idea

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Re: Funding FontForge

Dave Crossland

On 18 April 2016 at 18:44, Behdad Esfahbod <[hidden email]> wrote:
You won't let Fontforge die, do you?!

I want it to, but Frank Trampe was asking me about funding it, and I thought I'd better post to the community than reply to him :) 

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Re: Funding FontForge

Jason Pagura
Considering that Qt5 refuses to work on Macs with OSX 10.8 or lower, Trufont will never be an option for those stuck with legacy systems. The world still needs FontForge.

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Dave Crossland <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 18 April 2016 at 18:44, Behdad Esfahbod <[hidden email]> wrote:
You won't let Fontforge die, do you?!

I want it to, but Frank Trampe was asking me about funding it, and I thought I'd better post to the community than reply to him :) 

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zimbach at gmail dot com

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Re: Funding FontForge

Joe
Slow progress is better than no progress, and relative to 2012, it has
improved, a fair bit, but has yet much to go.  It is definitely a
huge/complex project, and the developer base is rather small.
Many projects have run out of steam with far less than seen here.

On April 18, 2016 05:22:23 PM Jason Pagura wrote:

> Considering that Qt5 refuses to work on Macs with OSX 10.8 or lower,
> Trufont will never be an option for those stuck with legacy systems. The
> world still needs FontForge.
>
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Dave Crossland <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 18 April 2016 at 18:44, Behdad Esfahbod <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> You won't let Fontforge die, do you?!
> >
> > I want it to, but Frank Trampe was asking me about funding it, and I
> > thought I'd better post to the community than reply to him :)
> >
> >
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> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-devel
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Re: Funding FontForge

Joe
In reply to this post by Behdad Esfahbod-3
On April 18, 2016 03:44:37 PM Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> You won't let Fontforge die, do you?!

hehehe - Do you want to be added to the OS/2 mailing list?

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Re: Funding FontForge

jb
In reply to this post by Jason Pagura
Jason Pagura wrote:
> Considering that Qt5 refuses to work on Macs with OSX 10.8 or lower,
> Trufont will never be an option for those stuck with legacy systems. The
> world still needs FontForge.


"Stuck with" ?? I recently ditched ALL the gnu crap on my computer,
went back to Display Postscript, Type1 fonts, Motif, a real compiler
and real programs.

Couldn't be happier. The computer now does its job, while I do work
/ play instead of hassling the churn churn churn of new this, new
that, replacement crap that all works about half as well as software
from 1995.

Fontforge as a Motif app would be nice, but otherwise ? It's fine
the way it is. "Legacy" means it actually works.


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Re: Funding FontForge

Adam Twardoch (List)
Let's talk about ditching FontForge when TruFont has OT features rendering in a fully-featured Metrics Windows, MATH table editing, AAT features support, automatic conversion to composites and all the dozens of functionalities not available in any other app, or only available in a few :)

I use FontForge at least once a week as a supplement for all my other tools.

Seriously speaking, FontForge's UI is a bit shit (though I guess people get used to it) but it has tons of unique functionalities, especially for production.

If at all, I'd work on integrating FontForge as a Python library into TruFont.

A.

Sent from my mobile phone.

> On 19.04.2016, at 07:00, jb <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Jason Pagura wrote:
>> Considering that Qt5 refuses to work on Macs with OSX 10.8 or lower,
>> Trufont will never be an option for those stuck with legacy systems. The
>> world still needs FontForge.
>
>
> "Stuck with" ?? I recently ditched ALL the gnu crap on my computer,
> went back to Display Postscript, Type1 fonts, Motif, a real compiler
> and real programs.
>
> Couldn't be happier. The computer now does its job, while I do work
> / play instead of hassling the churn churn churn of new this, new
> that, replacement crap that all works about half as well as software
> from 1995.
>
> Fontforge as a Motif app would be nice, but otherwise ? It's fine
> the way it is. "Legacy" means it actually works.
>
>
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> Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of
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> reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
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> fontforge-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-devel
> http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/Developer-f3.html

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Re: Funding FontForge

Joe
In reply to this post by jb
On April 18, 2016 10:00:54 PM jb wrote:
> Jason Pagura wrote:
> Fontforge as a Motif app would be nice, but otherwise ? It's fine
> the way it is. "Legacy" means it actually works.

out of curiosity, are you able to build/compile the latest FontForge,
libspiro, libuninameslist, or are you locked with an older version?

what builds, what doesn't, if you've tried something recent.

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Re: Funding FontForge

Frank Trampe
In reply to this post by Behdad Esfahbod-3
Hi, Behdad.

This was indeed a result of my queries. But even Dave still uses FontForge, as I remarked to much snickering during my LGM talk this year. And Dave is far from alone in this regard.

By my estimates, there are about 2,000 active typeface designers in the world, and the FontForge release from a few weeks ago recently hit 10,000 downloads, not counting Debian and Ubuntu packages. This means that FontForge has roughly 500% market share. It would be devastating to the typeface design community to lose access to a tool that 5 in 1 of its members use regularly.

The death of FontForge is not an end unto itself and does not magically create a replacement software package. We're probably five years from having an end-to-end replacement, and people still need to design, to maintain, and to convert typefaces during that time.

I'm not thrilled about carrying most of the burden, but FontForge must continue to support its user community, and I hope that its user community will consider ways to support FontForge during that time.

Best wishes,

Frank


On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Behdad Esfahbod <[hidden email]> wrote:
You won't let Fontforge die, do you?!

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 8:53 AM, Dave Crossland <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi

http://consortium.pharo.org/web/Membership seem like a nice idea

--
Cheers
Dave

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Re: Funding FontForge

Adam Twardoch (List)
5 years is optimistic. :) FontLab VI started 6 years ago as an end-to-end replacement for FontLab Studio 5, with several full-time developers. It's only nearing completion now, and FontLab Studio 5 still trumps VI in terms of stability. 

It's feels funny to be praising "competition" of sorts, but I can say that FontForge has not only been very useful for a number of typeface designers — it has been indispensable to complete certain most complex projects that no other tool would allow to happen. 

FontForge may have mighty competition in the mainstream field of "typical" font families. And for some tasks, there are better alternative. 

But in the edge cases (say MATH fonts), especially where commercial development may be unprofitable because certain functionalities are not "mass-worthy", FontForge shines. Once I've studied it long enough, I am rather amazed by both the breadth and depth of its functionality. 

It's actually a perfect case where opensource software makes most sense — FontForge does not (and IMO should not) compete or try to compete with the big mainstream. 

It's not a sports car, it ain't as pretty as a sports car, and possibly it never will be. But as a Russian truck to cross the bumpy Siberian terrains, it's great, and even unmatched. ;) 

A.

Sent from my mobile phone.

On 19.04.2016, at 09:26, Frank Trampe <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, Behdad.

This was indeed a result of my queries. But even Dave still uses FontForge, as I remarked to much snickering during my LGM talk this year. And Dave is far from alone in this regard.

By my estimates, there are about 2,000 active typeface designers in the world, and the FontForge release from a few weeks ago recently hit 10,000 downloads, not counting Debian and Ubuntu packages. This means that FontForge has roughly 500% market share. It would be devastating to the typeface design community to lose access to a tool that 5 in 1 of its members use regularly.

The death of FontForge is not an end unto itself and does not magically create a replacement software package. We're probably five years from having an end-to-end replacement, and people still need to design, to maintain, and to convert typefaces during that time.

I'm not thrilled about carrying most of the burden, but FontForge must continue to support its user community, and I hope that its user community will consider ways to support FontForge during that time.

Best wishes,

Frank


On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Behdad Esfahbod <[hidden email]> wrote:
You won't let Fontforge die, do you?!

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 8:53 AM, Dave Crossland <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi

http://consortium.pharo.org/web/Membership seem like a nice idea

--
Cheers
Dave

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--

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Re: Funding FontForge

jb
In reply to this post by Joe
Jose Da Silva wrote:

>
> out of curiosity, are you able to build/compile the latest FontForge,
> libspiro, libuninameslist, or are you locked with an older version?
>
> what builds, what doesn't, if you've tried something recent.



gort 7% ./fontforge -version
Copyright (c) 2000-2012 by George Williams.
  Executable based on sources from 14:57 GMT 31-Jul-2012-NoPython.
  Library based on sources from 14:57 GMT 31-Jul-2012.
fontforge 20120731
libfontforge 20120731



I had something newer running a few months  ... who am
I kidding, it was probably over a year ago now :)

But I'm pretty much done with the "upgrade" cycle. Too
many new breakages, too few old fixages. Maybe a newer
one is 'better' but it's not worth the hassle to find out.

Just look at this new project - all gaga over Qt. Whoopee.
I'm so excited. Want to talk wasted effort ?

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Re: Funding FontForge

Frank Trampe
Jose, I really think that you need to give FontForge and TruFont another look.

FontForge was indeed very broken for a few years due to a lack of developer leadership and the merging of bad pull requests. But I've spent the last few years fixing most of the damage and carefully reviewing pull requests (or holding them until I have time to do so). We've even fixed things that were broken from the George Williams days. I think that if you try a recent build of FontForge, you will find it to be as stable as a 2012 build, if not more so.

TruFont does indeed use Qt, but I don't see why this is a matter for objection. Are you suggesting that Adrien write his own widget kit like FontForge? Or that he use GTK? GTK is fine, but not massively better than Qt, and there's no reason in this day and age (of widespread Unicode support) to write another widget kit. I know that it wasn't an option back in 2000, but I sure wish that FontForge used a standard widget kit.

The effort on TruFont will not be wasted and will in fact be very well spent if it succeeds in implementing FontForge-level features in an appropriate programming language with a comprehensible, sane, and extensible object model. Adrien has shown himself in his FontForge work to be a skilled developer, and, with the right level of community and developer support, I expect that his project will succeed.


On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 3:18 AM, jb <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jose Da Silva wrote:

>
> out of curiosity, are you able to build/compile the latest FontForge,
> libspiro, libuninameslist, or are you locked with an older version?
>
> what builds, what doesn't, if you've tried something recent.



gort 7% ./fontforge -version
Copyright (c) 2000-2012 by George Williams.
  Executable based on sources from 14:57 GMT 31-Jul-2012-NoPython.
  Library based on sources from 14:57 GMT 31-Jul-2012.
fontforge 20120731
libfontforge 20120731



I had something newer running a few months  ... who am
I kidding, it was probably over a year ago now :)

But I'm pretty much done with the "upgrade" cycle. Too
many new breakages, too few old fixages. Maybe a newer
one is 'better' but it's not worth the hassle to find out.

Just look at this new project - all gaga over Qt. Whoopee.
I'm so excited. Want to talk wasted effort ?

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http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/Developer-f3.html


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Re: Funding FontForge

jb
In reply to this post by Joe
Jose Da Silva wrote:

> out of curiosity, are you able to build/compile the latest FontForge,
> libspiro, libuninameslist, or are you locked with an older version?


Update : Just grabbed the current code from github, does not even
configure. Not locked in, just not going to bother. It's not worth
the hassle.

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Re: Funding FontForge

luigi scarso


On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 10:49 AM, jb <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jose Da Silva wrote:

> out of curiosity, are you able to build/compile the latest FontForge,
> libspiro, libuninameslist, or are you locked with an older version?


Update : Just grabbed the current code from github, does not even
configure. Not locked in, just not going to bother. It's not worth
the hassle.



Building instructions are perhaps a bit complicated, but I have just successfully compiled  
tag f31f849f0faec4fa7a52364b3921c8ca8c706b6a 



commit f31f849f0faec4fa7a52364b3921c8ca8c706b6a
Author: Julien Nabet <[hidden email]>
Date:   Mon Apr 18 02:55:16 2016 +0200

    cppcheck: fix some resource and memory leaks (closes #2699)

--
luigi

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Re: Funding FontForge

Frank Trampe
In reply to this post by jb
Hi, Jose.

If you insist on building FontForge rather than using the precompiled packages for Windows, Macintosh, Debian, and Ubuntu, try reading the build instructions, and, if something indeed doesn't work, post an issue.

If you don't have time to read the build instructions, and you're sure that you have all of the new prerequisites (not my idea by the way) installed, try this: {
./bootstrap; ./configure; make;
}.

Best wishes,

Frank


On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 3:49 AM, jb <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jose Da Silva wrote:

> out of curiosity, are you able to build/compile the latest FontForge,
> libspiro, libuninameslist, or are you locked with an older version?


Update : Just grabbed the current code from github, does not even
configure. Not locked in, just not going to bother. It's not worth
the hassle.

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Re: Funding FontForge

Dave Crossland
In reply to this post by Behdad Esfahbod-3

On 18 April 2016 at 18:44, Behdad Esfahbod <[hidden email]> wrote:
You won't let Fontforge die, do you?!

Can we take this as another vote with mine for putting development effort in to a new cleanly designed alternative, ie Trufont? :) 

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Re: Funding FontForge

Dave Crossland
In reply to this post by Frank Trampe

On 19 April 2016 at 03:26, Frank Trampe <[hidden email]> wrote:
This was indeed a result of my queries. But even Dave still uses FontForge, as I remarked to much snickering during my LGM talk this year. And Dave is far from alone in this regard.

I'm not saying that we should not use FontForge. 

I'm saying that we should not develop it much, because that development effort should be put into another project. Currently I think this is TruFont. 

I think making releases from time to time - perhaps every 6 months - is a good idea, because naturally users who are C developers contribute patches. 
 
By my estimates, there are about 2,000 active typeface designers in the world, and the FontForge release from a few weeks ago recently hit 10,000 downloads, not counting Debian and Ubuntu packages. This means that FontForge has roughly 500% market share. It would be devastating to the typeface design community to lose access to a tool that 5 in 1 of its members use regularly.

395%, because almost none of the 2,000 active typeface designers in the world use FontForge. 
 
The death of FontForge is not an end unto itself and does not magically create a replacement software package. We're probably five years from having an end-to-end replacement, and people still need to design, to maintain, and to convert typefaces during that time.

Sure, and they should use FF and put up with it - as I do. 
 
I'm not thrilled about carrying most of the burden, but FontForge must continue to support its user community, and I hope that its user community will consider ways to support FontForge during that time.

If you want to raise funds and advance FontForge, that's great! But I'm not going to, beyond getting a release done every once in a while :) 

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Re: Funding FontForge

Dave Crossland
In reply to this post by Adam Twardoch (List)

On 19 April 2016 at 01:42, Adam Twardoch (List) <[hidden email]> wrote:
FontForge's UI is a bit shit (though I guess people get used to it)

Pathum, Andreas and others worked hard to address this in the last 12 months, and I hope that work will be merged into master ASAP

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Re: Funding FontForge

jb
In reply to this post by Frank Trampe
Frank Trampe wrote:
>
> If you insist on building FontForge rather than using the precompiled
> packages


There's no precompiled packages for Unix.

And yeah, I *do* "insist" on building my own software. I'm not
interested in clogging up my disks with 400 gigabytes of useless
mentally-retarded shit.


> If you don't have time to read the build instructions, and you're sure
> that you have all of the new prerequisites (not my idea by the way)
> installed, try this: {
> ./bootstrap; ./configure; make;
> }.


gort 10% ./bootstrap
bootstrap:   error: One of these is required:
bootstrap:                 libtoolize        glibtoolize

dream on

bootstrap:   error: 'perl' version == 5.4 is too old
bootstrap:          'perl' version >= 5.5 is required

oh well. too bad

bootstrap:   error: Prerequisite 'tar' not found. Please install it, or
bootstrap:          'export AMTAR=/path/to/tar'.

unh-hunh

gort 11% which tar
/usr/bin/tar


btw, gnu tar absolutely *butchers* anything it tars up now.
Not sure when that happened but PaxHeaders spread all over
every time I untar something, the gnu gnu boys can put that
where the sun don't shine either.


Just not interested, you know ? ./Configure, make, make
install has been around since the dawn of gnu. If you don't
want to use it that's fine.

But by the same token, I'm not going to bother with your
stuff, either. I'm finished jumping through hoops.

It's pointless. Not my job.


This situation may have something to do with the flagging
interest in software development, you know ....


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