[fontforge-devel] FontForge Mailing List Switch

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[fontforge-devel] FontForge Mailing List Switch

Frank Trampe
It's not a big deal for our user and development lists, but I find the Sourceforge ads inappropriate for the announcement list. For this reason and for others, I would like to contemplate switching to another service. Does anybody know of a service that we could use with a nice API, no ads, and low/no fees?


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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

Dave Crossland
Google Groups?

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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

Nathan Willis-4
We might be successful at reaching out to a related free-software project (say, TUG, just to name one randomly off the top of my head; that's not a serious suggestion).

Or a larger / umbrella project (eg, GNOME; same caveats apply).

Alternatively, we could make a case to Freedesktop.org -- I haven't researched the process, but I do know some of the people, and FontForge definitely deals with issues that affect all desktops.  And, notably, they already host Fontconfig, Harfbuzz, Fribidi, and OFLB, among others.

Or a dedicated FOSS-support organization perhaps.  OSU OSL hosts a lot of projects, and although they typically deal with big hosting needs, simple lists are available, too: http://osuosl.org/services/hosting/policy/

Nate

On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Dave Crossland <[hidden email]> wrote:
Google Groups?

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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

Frank Trampe
Would we get in trouble for making revenue plays (like a Kickstarter campaign) off of a list hosted by any of those?


On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Nathan Willis <[hidden email]> wrote:
We might be successful at reaching out to a related free-software project (say, TUG, just to name one randomly off the top of my head; that's not a serious suggestion).

Or a larger / umbrella project (eg, GNOME; same caveats apply).

Alternatively, we could make a case to Freedesktop.org -- I haven't researched the process, but I do know some of the people, and FontForge definitely deals with issues that affect all desktops.  And, notably, they already host Fontconfig, Harfbuzz, Fribidi, and OFLB, among others.

Or a dedicated FOSS-support organization perhaps.  OSU OSL hosts a lot of projects, and although they typically deal with big hosting needs, simple lists are available, too: http://osuosl.org/services/hosting/policy/

Nate

On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Dave Crossland <[hidden email]> wrote:
Google Groups?

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Joe
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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

Joe
I'm a little biased on restarting something elsewhere because there's
roughly 10+ years of archive here, and those that are looking for just
announcements are already here.

Some advertising is an understandable expectation, because someone has to
pay for ethernet bandwidth, electricity, maintaining/upgrading computers,
and if/when necessary - deal with the everpresent reality of spammers and
spamming. Fortunately, announcements tend to be a one-way message system,
but I do note that we've been relatively spam free compared to other
message lists (some of them are very spammy).

...but, if a move is "a must", you could look here. VanLug has been running
here for over a decade: http://www.robomod.net/

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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

Nathan Willis-4
In reply to this post by Frank Trampe
Almost certainly not -- although I haven't seen any public discussion of that topic, plenty of projects do fundraising these days.  The LibreOffice lists are hosted at FD.o and they do large-scale fundraising year-round.  I know several of the smaller projects do, too, or do so through some sponsoring org.

OSUOSL hosts some big efforts like Apache (surely with a different arrangement than we'd be interested in, of course; I'm just saying).

The more I think about it, the more FD.o seems like the obvious -- and simple -- choice.  The list servers are already up and running, etc. I would make the case, also, to FD.o admins, that FontForge is an important desktop component due to its role as the font build tool for distributions.  If that would even be necessary to justify.

Nate

On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 9:00 PM, Frank Trampe <[hidden email]> wrote:
Would we get in trouble for making revenue plays (like a Kickstarter campaign) off of a list hosted by any of those?


On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Nathan Willis <[hidden email]> wrote:
We might be successful at reaching out to a related free-software project (say, TUG, just to name one randomly off the top of my head; that's not a serious suggestion).

Or a larger / umbrella project (eg, GNOME; same caveats apply).

Alternatively, we could make a case to Freedesktop.org -- I haven't researched the process, but I do know some of the people, and FontForge definitely deals with issues that affect all desktops.  And, notably, they already host Fontconfig, Harfbuzz, Fribidi, and OFLB, among others.

Or a dedicated FOSS-support organization perhaps.  OSU OSL hosts a lot of projects, and although they typically deal with big hosting needs, simple lists are available, too: http://osuosl.org/services/hosting/policy/

Nate

On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Dave Crossland <[hidden email]> wrote:
Google Groups?

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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

Cheng-Chia Tseng
Nathan Willis <[hidden email]> 於 2016年10月2日 週日 下午6:19寫道:
Almost certainly not -- although I haven't seen any public discussion of that topic, plenty of projects do fundraising these days.  The LibreOffice lists are hosted at FD.o and they do large-scale fundraising year-round.  I know several of the smaller projects do, too, or do so through some sponsoring org.

OSUOSL hosts some big efforts like Apache (surely with a different arrangement than we'd be interested in, of course; I'm just saying).

The more I think about it, the more FD.o seems like the obvious -- and simple -- choice.  The list servers are already up and running, etc. I would make the case, also, to FD.o admins, that FontForge is an important desktop component due to its role as the font build tool for distributions.  If that would even be necessary to justify.

Agree. +1

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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

James Cloos-9
In reply to this post by Nathan Willis-4
FDo and sv.nongnu.org seem like the best fits.

freelists.org is also a possibility.

For fdo, request the lists at:

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=freedesktop.org

(Component should be Project Creation Requests.)

-JimC
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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

tlarson
In reply to this post by Joe
> I'm a little biased on restarting something elsewhere because there's
> roughly 10+ years of archive here, and those that are looking for just
> announcements are already here.
>
> Some advertising is an understandable expectation, because someone has
to
> pay for ethernet bandwidth, electricity, maintaining/upgrading
computers,
> and if/when necessary - deal with the everpresent reality of spammers
and
> spamming. Fortunately, announcements tend to be a one-way message
system,
> but I do note that we've been relatively spam free compared to other
> message lists (some of them are very spammy).

Agree. I don't see any real significant reason to move, and at least this
one really good reason to stay.
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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

Dave Crossland

On 3 October 2016 at 09:52, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm a little biased on restarting something elsewhere because there's
> roughly 10+ years of archive here, and those that are looking for just
> announcements are already here.
>
> Some advertising is an understandable expectation, because someone has
to
> pay for ethernet bandwidth, electricity, maintaining/upgrading
computers,
> and if/when necessary - deal with the everpresent reality of spammers
and
> spamming. Fortunately, announcements tend to be a one-way message
system,
> but I do note that we've been relatively spam free compared to other
> message lists (some of them are very spammy).

Agree. I don't see any real significant reason to move, and at least this
one really good reason to stay.

Frank T, were you talking about moving all 3 lists or only the announce list?  

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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

Frank Trampe
I'm only concerned about the announcement list right now.

I think that FontForge can be much more successful in building mindshare, its user base, and a donor base if we take steps to make it cool. I realize that this is significantly out of step with its historical origins, but it's what we need to keep the project healthy.

We've already done this for the icon set, the widget set, and the website. The last outward-facing thing is the announcement list.

As some of you may have noticed, I've adjusted the website to drive subscriptions to said list in order to improve engagement with casual users. That is where superficial impressions matter most, and we must act accordingly. I want to start sending fancy release announcements with pictures of new features and without other people's advertisements.


On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Dave Crossland <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 3 October 2016 at 09:52, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm a little biased on restarting something elsewhere because there's
> roughly 10+ years of archive here, and those that are looking for just
> announcements are already here.
>
> Some advertising is an understandable expectation, because someone has
to
> pay for ethernet bandwidth, electricity, maintaining/upgrading
computers,
> and if/when necessary - deal with the everpresent reality of spammers
and
> spamming. Fortunately, announcements tend to be a one-way message
system,
> but I do note that we've been relatively spam free compared to other
> message lists (some of them are very spammy).

Agree. I don't see any real significant reason to move, and at least this
one really good reason to stay.

Frank T, were you talking about moving all 3 lists or only the announce list?  

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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

Dave Crossland
Hi

Making a new announce list with Free Desktop sounds good to me

On 3 October 2016 at 12:18, Frank Trampe <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm only concerned about the announcement list right now.

I think that FontForge can be much more successful in building mindshare, its user base, and a donor base if we take steps to make it cool. I realize that this is significantly out of step with its historical origins, but it's what we need to keep the project healthy.

We've already done this for the icon set, the widget set, and the website. The last outward-facing thing is the announcement list.

As some of you may have noticed, I've adjusted the website to drive subscriptions to said list in order to improve engagement with casual users. That is where superficial impressions matter most, and we must act accordingly. I want to start sending fancy release announcements with pictures of new features and without other people's advertisements.


On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Dave Crossland <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 3 October 2016 at 09:52, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm a little biased on restarting something elsewhere because there's
> roughly 10+ years of archive here, and those that are looking for just
> announcements are already here.
>
> Some advertising is an understandable expectation, because someone has
to
> pay for ethernet bandwidth, electricity, maintaining/upgrading
computers,
> and if/when necessary - deal with the everpresent reality of spammers
and
> spamming. Fortunately, announcements tend to be a one-way message
system,
> but I do note that we've been relatively spam free compared to other
> message lists (some of them are very spammy).

Agree. I don't see any real significant reason to move, and at least this
one really good reason to stay.

Frank T, were you talking about moving all 3 lists or only the announce list?  

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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

Nathan Willis-4
Well, it seems that someone at SourceForge has pulled the "Annoy our customers" lever again. (If you haven't gotten a 'please confirm again that you want this mailing list or we'll automatically unsubscribe you' email, yet, it's coming!)

Maybe that means it's time to revisit this topic?

Nate


On Oct 3, 2016 5:59 PM, "Dave Crossland" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

Making a new announce list with Free Desktop sounds good to me

On 3 October 2016 at 12:18, Frank Trampe <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm only concerned about the announcement list right now.

I think that FontForge can be much more successful in building mindshare, its user base, and a donor base if we take steps to make it cool. I realize that this is significantly out of step with its historical origins, but it's what we need to keep the project healthy.

We've already done this for the icon set, the widget set, and the website. The last outward-facing thing is the announcement list.

As some of you may have noticed, I've adjusted the website to drive subscriptions to said list in order to improve engagement with casual users. That is where superficial impressions matter most, and we must act accordingly. I want to start sending fancy release announcements with pictures of new features and without other people's advertisements.


On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Dave Crossland <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 3 October 2016 at 09:52, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm a little biased on restarting something elsewhere because there's
> roughly 10+ years of archive here, and those that are looking for just
> announcements are already here.
>
> Some advertising is an understandable expectation, because someone has
to
> pay for ethernet bandwidth, electricity, maintaining/upgrading
computers,
> and if/when necessary - deal with the everpresent reality of spammers
and
> spamming. Fortunately, announcements tend to be a one-way message
system,
> but I do note that we've been relatively spam free compared to other
> message lists (some of them are very spammy).

Agree. I don't see any real significant reason to move, and at least this
one really good reason to stay.

Frank T, were you talking about moving all 3 lists or only the announce list?  

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Dave

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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

Frank Trampe
That is rather vexing. I've submitted a request to the freedesktop tracker.


On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 2:16 AM, Nathan Willis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Well, it seems that someone at SourceForge has pulled the "Annoy our customers" lever again. (If you haven't gotten a 'please confirm again that you want this mailing list or we'll automatically unsubscribe you' email, yet, it's coming!)

Maybe that means it's time to revisit this topic?

Nate


On Oct 3, 2016 5:59 PM, "Dave Crossland" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

Making a new announce list with Free Desktop sounds good to me

On 3 October 2016 at 12:18, Frank Trampe <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm only concerned about the announcement list right now.

I think that FontForge can be much more successful in building mindshare, its user base, and a donor base if we take steps to make it cool. I realize that this is significantly out of step with its historical origins, but it's what we need to keep the project healthy.

We've already done this for the icon set, the widget set, and the website. The last outward-facing thing is the announcement list.

As some of you may have noticed, I've adjusted the website to drive subscriptions to said list in order to improve engagement with casual users. That is where superficial impressions matter most, and we must act accordingly. I want to start sending fancy release announcements with pictures of new features and without other people's advertisements.


On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Dave Crossland <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 3 October 2016 at 09:52, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm a little biased on restarting something elsewhere because there's
> roughly 10+ years of archive here, and those that are looking for just
> announcements are already here.
>
> Some advertising is an understandable expectation, because someone has
to
> pay for ethernet bandwidth, electricity, maintaining/upgrading
computers,
> and if/when necessary - deal with the everpresent reality of spammers
and
> spamming. Fortunately, announcements tend to be a one-way message
system,
> but I do note that we've been relatively spam free compared to other
> message lists (some of them are very spammy).

Agree. I don't see any real significant reason to move, and at least this
one really good reason to stay.

Frank T, were you talking about moving all 3 lists or only the announce list?  

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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

Nathan Willis-4
Can you share the link?

On Jun 10, 2017 3:22 PM, "Frank Trampe" <[hidden email]> wrote:
That is rather vexing. I've submitted a request to the freedesktop tracker.


On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 2:16 AM, Nathan Willis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Well, it seems that someone at SourceForge has pulled the "Annoy our customers" lever again. (If you haven't gotten a 'please confirm again that you want this mailing list or we'll automatically unsubscribe you' email, yet, it's coming!)

Maybe that means it's time to revisit this topic?

Nate


On Oct 3, 2016 5:59 PM, "Dave Crossland" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

Making a new announce list with Free Desktop sounds good to me

On 3 October 2016 at 12:18, Frank Trampe <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm only concerned about the announcement list right now.

I think that FontForge can be much more successful in building mindshare, its user base, and a donor base if we take steps to make it cool. I realize that this is significantly out of step with its historical origins, but it's what we need to keep the project healthy.

We've already done this for the icon set, the widget set, and the website. The last outward-facing thing is the announcement list.

As some of you may have noticed, I've adjusted the website to drive subscriptions to said list in order to improve engagement with casual users. That is where superficial impressions matter most, and we must act accordingly. I want to start sending fancy release announcements with pictures of new features and without other people's advertisements.


On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Dave Crossland <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 3 October 2016 at 09:52, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm a little biased on restarting something elsewhere because there's
> roughly 10+ years of archive here, and those that are looking for just
> announcements are already here.
>
> Some advertising is an understandable expectation, because someone has
to
> pay for ethernet bandwidth, electricity, maintaining/upgrading
computers,
> and if/when necessary - deal with the everpresent reality of spammers
and
> spamming. Fortunately, announcements tend to be a one-way message
system,
> but I do note that we've been relatively spam free compared to other
> message lists (some of them are very spammy).

Agree. I don't see any real significant reason to move, and at least this
one really good reason to stay.

Frank T, were you talking about moving all 3 lists or only the announce list?  

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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

Frank Trampe

On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Nathan Willis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Can you share the link?

On Jun 10, 2017 3:22 PM, "Frank Trampe" <[hidden email]> wrote:
That is rather vexing. I've submitted a request to the freedesktop tracker.


On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 2:16 AM, Nathan Willis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Well, it seems that someone at SourceForge has pulled the "Annoy our customers" lever again. (If you haven't gotten a 'please confirm again that you want this mailing list or we'll automatically unsubscribe you' email, yet, it's coming!)

Maybe that means it's time to revisit this topic?

Nate


On Oct 3, 2016 5:59 PM, "Dave Crossland" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi

Making a new announce list with Free Desktop sounds good to me

On 3 October 2016 at 12:18, Frank Trampe <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm only concerned about the announcement list right now.

I think that FontForge can be much more successful in building mindshare, its user base, and a donor base if we take steps to make it cool. I realize that this is significantly out of step with its historical origins, but it's what we need to keep the project healthy.

We've already done this for the icon set, the widget set, and the website. The last outward-facing thing is the announcement list.

As some of you may have noticed, I've adjusted the website to drive subscriptions to said list in order to improve engagement with casual users. That is where superficial impressions matter most, and we must act accordingly. I want to start sending fancy release announcements with pictures of new features and without other people's advertisements.


On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Dave Crossland <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 3 October 2016 at 09:52, <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm a little biased on restarting something elsewhere because there's
> roughly 10+ years of archive here, and those that are looking for just
> announcements are already here.
>
> Some advertising is an understandable expectation, because someone has
to
> pay for ethernet bandwidth, electricity, maintaining/upgrading
computers,
> and if/when necessary - deal with the everpresent reality of spammers
and
> spamming. Fortunately, announcements tend to be a one-way message
system,
> but I do note that we've been relatively spam free compared to other
> message lists (some of them are very spammy).

Agree. I don't see any real significant reason to move, and at least this
one really good reason to stay.

Frank T, were you talking about moving all 3 lists or only the announce list?  

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Dave

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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

Joe
In reply to this post by Nathan Willis-4
Hi Nathan,

On June 10, 2017 12:16:54 AM Nathan Willis wrote:
> Well, it seems that someone at SourceForge has pulled the "Annoy our
> customers" lever again. (If you haven't gotten a 'please confirm again
> that you want this mailing list or we'll automatically unsubscribe you'
> email, yet, it's coming!)

Just received it 15 minutes after your message.


> Maybe that means it's time to revisit this topic?

Sometimes mailinglists need to do maintenance and prune-off the email
addresses that are simply sending unread messages to the junk-folder.
If the message isn't read, there is little point in sending the email.
From the mailing list point of view, it saves bytes in transmission,
computer time, electricity, etc, and therefore saves money.
I'd rather see the occassional confirmation on a free-to-use mailinglist
that does a pretty good job in keeping noise/spam to a minimum.
I've seen some mailing lists rendered useless due to the amount of spam
going through them if/when the spammers figure-out a way to automate their
logins and spamming.

There are also other forces at play too, for example, in Canada, the anti-
spam laws are making this sort of request "a good thing" where you need
confirmation that you want-in, and wish to remain-in, which is a better
solution than earlier "auto-opt-in" and attempts to opt-out are ignored.
http://crtc.gc.ca/eng/internet/anti.htm
It doesn't kill spamming, but it is an improvement.

If we moved to another list, we might see it there too, therefore you'd get
zero gain here, and minus gain (years of fontforge archive).

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Re: FontForge Mailing List Switch

Abraham Lee
In reply to this post by Nathan Willis-4
On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 1:16 AM, Nathan Willis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Well, it seems that someone at SourceForge has pulled the "Annoy our customers" lever again. (If you haven't gotten a 'please confirm again that you want this mailing list or we'll automatically unsubscribe you' email, yet, it's coming!)

Maybe that means it's time to revisit this topic?

I'm just glad to know that it wasn't some kind of phishing scam. Thanks for confirming this!

Best,
Abraham

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