[fontforge-devel] Flame Rules Proposal (Respond With Comments)

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[fontforge-devel] Flame Rules Proposal (Respond With Comments)

Frank Trampe
  • We will not allow anybody to defame another individual by name, on any thread, without his permission. Defamation, slander, libel, and harassment are illegal in many countries, and the FontForge organization cannot allow itself to be involved in such a thing. Legal issues aside, the list must provide a safe or at least neutral (non-hostile) environment in order to support a healthy exchange of ideas.
  • We will not allow anybody to defame a group that qualifies as a protected class in the United States. These classes include race, skin color, national origin, sex, and age. The mailing list is hosted in the United States, and is subject to the laws thereof.
  • We will not allow any non-hate-speech thread to be used for hate speech or non-constructive criticism of any type. The FontForge list is for productive discussion of issues relating to FontForge, computer typography, and typography in general. We must preserve this function.
  • We will not allow gross obscenities or elevated hate speech on any thread unless the subject line includes a tag such as [NSFW] or [mature]. The list is not necessarily closed to children, and even some adults are uncomfortable seeing another person or group viciously attacked. We must give them the option of participating in the FontForge community without experiencing vicious behavior and vulgarity.
  • In the interest of advancing free speech and of not being seen as censoring its critics, the FontForge organization will exercise restraint in moderating and blocking mailing list participants, but it will take necessary steps to enforce these rules and to protect developers, users, and other mailing list subscribers.


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Re: Flame Rules Proposal (Respond With Comments)

mskala
Is it really necessary to create that much infrastructure just to ban one
obviously abusive user whom nobody will miss?
--
Matthew Skala
[hidden email]                 People before principles.
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/

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Re: Flame Rules Proposal (Respond With Comments)

Felipe Sanches-2
It is good to take the opportunity to get ready for whenever another
one shows up :-)

On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 8:45 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Is it really necessary to create that much infrastructure just to ban one
> obviously abusive user whom nobody will miss?
> --
> Matthew Skala
> [hidden email]                 People before principles.
> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> fontforge-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-devel
> http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/Developer-f3.html

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Re: Flame Rules Proposal (Respond With Comments)

Matijs van Zuijlen-2
In reply to this post by Frank Trampe
Hi,

Instead of starting of with the worst offenses, I would start with the
positive bits for this, e.g., this bit:

  The FontForge list is for productive discussion of issues relating to
  FontForge, computer typography, and typography in general.

and this bit:

  the list must provide a safe or at least neutral (non-hostile)
  environment in order to support a healthy exchange of ideas.

Also, I'm not sure why the FontForge list would allow for hate speech
threads at all; even marked with a special marker, the subject lines
would still appear in everyone's inboxes.

You could also choose to have a more vague set of rules and leave the
obviously illegal things out entirely. Something like:

  We want to have a productive discussion here, so be civil. Continued
  behavior that is deemed to be counter-productive by the lists admins
  may lead to the offender being blocked from this mailing list.

Regards,
Matijs

On 05-08-16 00:53, Frank Trampe wrote:

>   * We will not allow anybody to defame another individual by name, on
>     any thread, without his permission. Defamation, slander, libel, and
>     harassment are illegal in many countries, and the FontForge
>     organization cannot allow itself to be involved in such a thing.
>     Legal issues aside, the list must provide a safe or at least neutral
>     (non-hostile) environment in order to support a healthy exchange of
>     ideas.
>   * We will not allow anybody to defame a group that qualifies as a
>     protected class in the United States. These classes include race,
>     skin color, national origin, sex, and age. The mailing list is
>     hosted in the United States, and is subject to the laws thereof.
>   * We will not allow any non-hate-speech thread to be used for hate
>     speech or non-constructive criticism of any type. The FontForge list
>     is for productive discussion of issues relating to FontForge,
>     computer typography, and typography in general. We must preserve
>     this function.
>   * We will not allow gross obscenities or elevated hate speech on any
>     thread unless the subject line includes a tag such as [NSFW] or
>     [mature]. The list is not necessarily closed to children, and even
>     some adults are uncomfortable seeing another person or group
>     viciously attacked. We must give them the option of participating in
>     the FontForge community without experiencing vicious behavior and
>     vulgarity.
>   * In the interest of advancing free speech and of not being seen as
>     censoring its critics, the FontForge organization will exercise
>     restraint in moderating and blocking mailing list participants, but
>     it will take necessary steps to enforce these rules and to protect
>     developers, users, and other mailing list subscribers.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> fontforge-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-devel
> http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/Developer-f3.html
>

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Re: Flame Rules Proposal (Respond With Comments)

Daniel Kahn Gillmor-7
On Fri 2016-08-05 08:04:54 -0400, Matijs van Zuijlen wrote:

> Instead of starting of with the worst offenses, I would start with the
> positive bits for this, e.g., this bit:
>
>   The FontForge list is for productive discussion of issues relating to
>   FontForge, computer typography, and typography in general.
>
> and this bit:
>
>   the list must provide a safe or at least neutral (non-hostile)
>   environment in order to support a healthy exchange of ideas.
>
> Also, I'm not sure why the FontForge list would allow for hate speech
> threads at all; even marked with a special marker, the subject lines
> would still appear in everyone's inboxes.
>
> You could also choose to have a more vague set of rules and leave the
> obviously illegal things out entirely. Something like:
>
>   We want to have a productive discussion here, so be civil. Continued
>   behavior that is deemed to be counter-productive by the lists admins
>   may lead to the offender being blocked from this mailing list.
fwiw, i think Matijs is on the right track here.  An effective code of
conduct for the mailing list would set out guidelines about the purpose
of the list and how to use it well, not to wade into legal struggles or
to stake out any particular geopolitical turf.

If you want to call out any particular forms of bad behavior, it could
be a simple list like "Continued abusive, insulting, off-topic, or
otherwise counter-productive mails (as judged by the list admins) may
lead..."

Regards,

     --dkg

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Re: Flame Rules Proposal (Respond With Comments)

Frank Trampe
In reply to this post by mskala

I think it's dangerous to ban people without a clear set of standards and important to have a specific justification when banning somebody.

I'm also eager to avoid any appearance of censoring criticism. The presence of angry complaints validates the openness of the forum.

On Aug 4, 2016 6:45 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Is it really necessary to create that much infrastructure just to ban one
obviously abusive user whom nobody will miss?
--
Matthew Skala
[hidden email]                 People before principles.
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/

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Re: Flame Rules Proposal (Respond With Comments)

Frank Trampe
In reply to this post by Daniel Kahn Gillmor-7
I do think that it's important to have high-minded general principles, but I want to have a set of rules that can function on the per-message level so as to facilitate per-message moderation.


On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 8:32 AM, Daniel Kahn Gillmor <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri 2016-08-05 08:04:54 -0400, Matijs van Zuijlen wrote:

> Instead of starting of with the worst offenses, I would start with the
> positive bits for this, e.g., this bit:
>
>   The FontForge list is for productive discussion of issues relating to
>   FontForge, computer typography, and typography in general.
>
> and this bit:
>
>   the list must provide a safe or at least neutral (non-hostile)
>   environment in order to support a healthy exchange of ideas.
>
> Also, I'm not sure why the FontForge list would allow for hate speech
> threads at all; even marked with a special marker, the subject lines
> would still appear in everyone's inboxes.
>
> You could also choose to have a more vague set of rules and leave the
> obviously illegal things out entirely. Something like:
>
>   We want to have a productive discussion here, so be civil. Continued
>   behavior that is deemed to be counter-productive by the lists admins
>   may lead to the offender being blocked from this mailing list.

fwiw, i think Matijs is on the right track here.  An effective code of
conduct for the mailing list would set out guidelines about the purpose
of the list and how to use it well, not to wade into legal struggles or
to stake out any particular geopolitical turf.

If you want to call out any particular forms of bad behavior, it could
be a simple list like "Continued abusive, insulting, off-topic, or
otherwise counter-productive mails (as judged by the list admins) may
lead..."

Regards,

     --dkg

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Re: Flame Rules Proposal (Respond With Comments)

Martin B. Brilliant
I don’t think any set of rules can precisely distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable posts. It isn’t just that “A hair perhaps divides the false and true”; in cases like this, it’s a shifting cloud.

I think the procedure, when a user contributes objectionable posts, should start with an administrator sending a warning notice to the offender, publicly on the list, warning that a repeat of language like (whatever it is) would result in banishment from the list. As long as the warning is public, there is an opportunity for the user community to decide whether the posts are in fact objectionable.

I would suggest a sticky post with the following structure:

1. A statement of the purpose of the forum.

2. A disclaimer of what the community can and cannot do, such as that everybody is part time and unpaid, the project is stuck in gcc, etc.

3. A statement of what posts are desired and acceptable: questions, answers, comments, etc.

4. A statement of what is not acceptable, like “personally derogatory,” “generally offensive,” etc.

5. A statement of procedure as described above.

BTW I think “jb” has some valid points, though his wording doesn't invite rational response. He seems to be unaware (because nobody said it explicitly) that unless a change is submitted through git, it’s not likely to happen. And learning how to use git is a high hurdle (which I, for one, haven’t been able to get over).

On Aug 5, 2016, at 8:05 PM, Frank Trampe <[hidden email]> wrote:

I do think that it's important to have high-minded general principles, but I want to have a set of rules that can function on the per-message level so as to facilitate per-message moderation.


On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 8:32 AM, Daniel Kahn Gillmor <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri 2016-08-05 08:04:54 -0400, Matijs van Zuijlen wrote:

> Instead of starting of with the worst offenses, I would start with the
> positive bits for this, e.g., this bit:
>
>   The FontForge list is for productive discussion of issues relating to
>   FontForge, computer typography, and typography in general.
>
> and this bit:
>
>   the list must provide a safe or at least neutral (non-hostile)
>   environment in order to support a healthy exchange of ideas.
>
> Also, I'm not sure why the FontForge list would allow for hate speech
> threads at all; even marked with a special marker, the subject lines
> would still appear in everyone's inboxes.
>
> You could also choose to have a more vague set of rules and leave the
> obviously illegal things out entirely. Something like:
>
>   We want to have a productive discussion here, so be civil. Continued
>   behavior that is deemed to be counter-productive by the lists admins
>   may lead to the offender being blocked from this mailing list.

fwiw, i think Matijs is on the right track here.  An effective code of
conduct for the mailing list would set out guidelines about the purpose
of the list and how to use it well, not to wade into legal struggles or
to stake out any particular geopolitical turf.

If you want to call out any particular forms of bad behavior, it could
be a simple list like "Continued abusive, insulting, off-topic, or
otherwise counter-productive mails (as judged by the list admins) may
lead..."

Regards,

     --dkg

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Re: Flame Rules Proposal (Respond With Comments)

Dave Crossland
I would to request not using the title "Code of Conduct".

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