Width of accented glyph is locked (tonos on capitals)

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Width of accented glyph is locked (tonos on capitals)

marty39
I'm building a set of fonts (not exactly a family), inspired by thirteen capital letters on a signboard, that has developed into capitals, lower case and small caps for basic LGC.

Along the way I discovered that although Fontforge places the Greek tonos accent above both capitals and lower case, the tonos really belongs to the left of a capital, not above it. Moving the diacritic from above a capital vowel to the left of it (except on 'A') places it to the left of the origin, requiring that the advance width be increased. See attached image.

I want the composite glyph to consist of references and not independent contours. But as long as the accented glyph is made up of references, the advance width shows a lock icon in glyph view, and nothing I do will change the side bearings or the advance width. Is there any way (without detaching the references) to make the side bearings fit the whole glyph and not just the letter reference?

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Re: Width of accented glyph is locked (tonos on capitals)

marty39
Found one way. Go to where the letter component is defined by splines and copy reference. Delete the letter reference from the composite glyph and paste in the reference you just copied. The glyph looks exactly the same except that the advance width is not locked, and all metrics menu commands are now accessible.

Has to be done step by step in glyph view for each glyph. Is there a batch method?
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Re: Width of accented glyph is locked (tonos on capitals)

Nathan Willis-4


On Nov 28, 2015 10:01 PM, "marty39" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Found one way. Go to where the letter component is defined by splines and
> copy reference. Delete the letter reference from the composite glyph and
> paste in the reference you just copied. The glyph looks exactly the same
> except that the advance width is not locked, and all metrics menu commands
> are now accessible.
>
> Has to be done step by step in glyph view for each glyph. Is there a batch
> method?
>

Yeah, Ff has some deeply buried quirks in accented glyph management; I've been there, too....

How did you create the composite glyph initially? Was it with "Build Accented" or "Build Composite" from the menu?

Also, I'm assuming you weren't using anchors to position the accents, is that right?

Nate

>
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Re: Width of accented glyph is locked (tonos on capitals)

marty39
Nathan Willis-4 wrote
On Nov 28, 2015 10:01 PM, "marty39" <[hidden email]> wrote:
....

How did you create the composite glyph initially? Was it with "Build
Accented" or "Build Composite" from the menu?

Also, I'm assuming you weren't using anchors to position the accents, is
that right?

Nate
For what it's worth, I used "Build Accented" and did not use anchors. If I had to use anchors I wouldn't have built the glyphs. As I said, this was all inspired by thirteen capitals.

Between posting that question and finding the workaround, I wondered why I needed those glyphs at all. Anybody wanting to insert Epsilon-tonos could simply type a tonos followed by an Epsilon, since the tonos is a spacing character. The composite characters for lower case plus tonos are needed because there is no combining tonos ... am I right?

I apologize for mis-writing. The tonos does not go on 'A', it goes on Alpha. And it can be placed not only on the Alpha but also on the Omicron and Omega without encroaching on the left side bearing. Only the Epsilon, Eta, Iota and Upsilon needed the fix.

No, I don't know Greek. All I know is the alphabet and a few tourist phrases.
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Re: Width of accented glyph is locked (tonos on capitals)

Nathan Willis-4


On Nov 29, 2015 11:22 AM, "marty39" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Nathan Willis-4 wrote
> > On Nov 28, 2015 10:01 PM, "marty39" &lt;
>
> > mbrilliant@.mit
>
> > &gt; wrote:
> > ....
> >
> > How did you create the composite glyph initially? Was it with "Build
> > Accented" or "Build Composite" from the menu?
> >
> > Also, I'm assuming you weren't using anchors to position the accents, is
> > that right?
> >
> > Nate
>
> For what it's worth, I used "Build Accented" and did not use anchors. If I
> had to use anchors I wouldn't have built the glyphs. As I said, this was all
> inspired by thirteen capitals.

Well, the "Build" commands take anchors into account. If you have the bases and marks set up with anchors, the Builds create the precomposed glyphs from them. If you don't have anchors, Build* "guesses" where the diacritics go. Not always well.  (Alternatively, if you set up anchors and don't do Build*, you'll have well-placed uncomposed glyphs, but no precomposed ones. Which might be fine for your font, of course.)

But the real reason I asked was that the Accented and Composite flavors of Build* don't always do the same thing. I've had fewer annoyances with Composite.

> Between posting that question and finding the workaround, I wondered why I
> needed those glyphs at all. Anybody wanting to insert Epsilon-tonos could
> simply type a tonos followed by an Epsilon,

They could if they're typing (and knew what glyphs are available); that wouldn't help if they opened an existing document, though.

> since the tonos is a spacing
> character. The composite characters for lower case plus tonos are needed
> because there is no combining tonos ... am I right?

I think that's U+0344: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0344/index.htm

But I'd certainly defer to someone who knows Greek.

> I apologize for mis-writing. The tonos does not go on 'A', it goes on Alpha.
> And it can be placed not only on the Alpha but also on the Omicron and Omega
> without encroaching on the left side bearing. Only the Epsilon, Eta, Iota
> and Upsilon needed the fix.
>
> No, I don't know Greek. All I know is the alphabet and a few tourist
> phrases.

Yeah, it's not easy to tackle a non-native script; a lot of people try to discourage designers from doing it. Personally, I'd say don't worry too much about it but try to find a native designer who can give you feedback.

In the meantime, I think I have encountered the same issue you're describing, from when I made i and j in their dotless forms first, then created the dotted forms as composites. It'd be worth filing a bug about, IMO.

Is your font online where we could see it?

Nate
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/Width-of-accented-glyph-is-locked-tonos-on-capitals-tp14936p14939.html
> Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> fontforge-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
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Re: Width of accented glyph is locked (tonos on capitals)

marty39
Nathan Willis-4 wrote
...

> ... Anybody wanting to insert Epsilon-tonos could
> simply type a tonos followed by an Epsilon,

They could if they're typing (and knew what glyphs are available); that
wouldn't help if they opened an existing document, though.

> since the tonos is a spacing
> character. The composite characters for lower case plus tonos are needed
> because there is no combining tonos ... am I right?

I think that's U+0344:
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0344/index.htm

...

Is your font online where we could see it?
1) Existing documents are frequently messed up. Even when reading an Apple webpage on an Apple machine with Apple software, accented letters can come out as notdef.

2) I already looked at U_0344. It's dialytica tonos, a combination of diaeresis with tonos. Not with acute accent as it says on that page. Tonos is more steeply angled, like prime.

3) No, it's not on line yet. I'm rethinking the Greek lower case yet again.

What would be a good place to put a font with nonstandard styles? Maybe as a "work in progress"? I'm building three styles: (1) "Signboard," meant for closely spaced lines with the diacritics accommodated by squeezing the letters, not by encroaching on the leading; (2) "Upper," with small caps instead of lower case, and lining numerals; (3) "Lower," with true lower case and old style proportional numerals. Upper and Lower could be used together, but not with Signboard.
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Re: Width of accented glyph is locked (tonos on capitals)

DRKblade
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In reply to this post by marty39
I had the same problem but I found the solution. Right-click on the Epsilon reference and select 'Get Info...', then uncheck 'Use My Metrics'. The glyph width should be unlocked.