Kerning and Weird Behaviour

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Kerning and Weird Behaviour

Samuel Sutherland
I am currently in the process of recreating a hand-written
pseudo-korean script for the latin alphabet for a friend's dungeons
and dragons campaign, and what this means is that multiple characters
can be joined together in single blocks. This is absolutely possible
to do using kern and calt to replace characters with the correct
variant glyph for the part of the block they're in, and then kerning
the new glyphs together.
To this end, I recreated each glyph in the correct position inside a
1x1em square (1000px because opentype) in inkscape, and imported the
SVGs with no problems. Therefore, in order to put the characters in
the right places, I should only need to kern the second glyph back by
exactly 1em so that the two glyphs are superimposed, with their left
bearings and right bearings aligning. Unfortunately, this is not
working and the actual value that kerns the two glyphs into the right
position is around -833. I've attached a link to screenshot of how they kern
(roughly) correctly with a value of -833, and also a screenshot
showing them being 1em apart with the calt lookup removed. In this
unkerned image, the vertical line at the left of the 4-shaped glyph
for 'b' on the right hand side should exactly overlap with the right
hand side vertical of the H-shaped glyph for 'b' in the third box

Does anyone know why I need to use -833 over my expected value of
-1000, because -833 seems very arbitrary to me - everything in the
actual glyphs is a multiples of 25px because I built them all in
inkscape with a load of guides to make sure all the characters would
be in the right place inside the 1em square box to make my job easier
now. Oh how naive I was.

Many thanks in advance to anyone who knows what I'm not seeing,

Sam Sutherland

Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/lp4RI

(P.S. I'm aware that the glyphs aren't too pretty - my priority is on
getting it working over getting it pretty - glyphs can always be
edited afterwards)

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Re: Kerning and Weird Behaviour

MMacD
You might need to explain the issues in more detail.   Can you
fake up an image of what you're expecting to get, using your
example glyphs/fragments, so we can see the difference to what
you are getting?  Em is not necessarily a good metric for the
amount to move to get perfect superimposition since in most most
fonts individual glyphs vary in width.

On Sun, 21 May 2017 23:07:25 +0100, you wrote:

>I am currently in the process of recreating a hand-written
>pseudo-korean script for the latin alphabet for a friend's dungeons
>and dragons campaign, and what this means is that multiple characters
>can be joined together in single blocks. This is absolutely possible
>to do using kern and calt to replace characters with the correct
>variant glyph for the part of the block they're in, and then kerning
>the new glyphs together.
>To this end, I recreated each glyph in the correct position inside a
>1x1em square (1000px because opentype) in inkscape, and imported the
>SVGs with no problems. Therefore, in order to put the characters in
>the right places, I should only need to kern the second glyph back by
>exactly 1em so that the two glyphs are superimposed, with their left
>bearings and right bearings aligning. Unfortunately, this is not
>working and the actual value that kerns the two glyphs into the right
>position is around -833. I've attached a link to screenshot of how they kern
>(roughly) correctly with a value of -833, and also a screenshot
>showing them being 1em apart with the calt lookup removed. In this
>unkerned image, the vertical line at the left of the 4-shaped glyph
>for 'b' on the right hand side should exactly overlap with the right
>hand side vertical of the H-shaped glyph for 'b' in the third box
>
>Does anyone know why I need to use -833 over my expected value of
>-1000, because -833 seems very arbitrary to me - everything in the
>actual glyphs is a multiples of 25px because I built them all in
>inkscape with a load of guides to make sure all the characters would
>be in the right place inside the 1em square box to make my job easier
>now. Oh how naive I was.
>
>Many thanks in advance to anyone who knows what I'm not seeing,
>
>Sam Sutherland
>
>Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/lp4RI
>
>(P.S. I'm aware that the glyphs aren't too pretty - my priority is on
>getting it working over getting it pretty - glyphs can always be
>edited afterwards)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>_______________________________________________
>fontforge-users mailing list
>[hidden email]
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html

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Re: Kerning and Weird Behaviour

Samuel Sutherland
http://imgur.com/a/lp4RI
 This is what the word "trains" should look like.
What I have right now is a differerent glyph for each character in
each position, and each glyph is 1000px by 1000px with the actual
glyph in the right part of the box, so that were all six glpyhs that
would make up "trains" superimposed, this is what they'd look like.
I realise it's quite ambitious to do this with a system that was just
designed for more simple kerning and substitution, but I reckon it
would be possible, if a little difficult.

On 21 May 2017 at 23:26,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You might need to explain the issues in more detail.   Can you
> fake up an image of what you're expecting to get, using your
> example glyphs/fragments, so we can see the difference to what
> you are getting?  Em is not necessarily a good metric for the
> amount to move to get perfect superimposition since in most most
> fonts individual glyphs vary in width.
>
> On Sun, 21 May 2017 23:07:25 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>I am currently in the process of recreating a hand-written
>>pseudo-korean script for the latin alphabet for a friend's dungeons
>>and dragons campaign, and what this means is that multiple characters
>>can be joined together in single blocks. This is absolutely possible
>>to do using kern and calt to replace characters with the correct
>>variant glyph for the part of the block they're in, and then kerning
>>the new glyphs together.
>>To this end, I recreated each glyph in the correct position inside a
>>1x1em square (1000px because opentype) in inkscape, and imported the
>>SVGs with no problems. Therefore, in order to put the characters in
>>the right places, I should only need to kern the second glyph back by
>>exactly 1em so that the two glyphs are superimposed, with their left
>>bearings and right bearings aligning. Unfortunately, this is not
>>working and the actual value that kerns the two glyphs into the right
>>position is around -833. I've attached a link to screenshot of how they kern
>>(roughly) correctly with a value of -833, and also a screenshot
>>showing them being 1em apart with the calt lookup removed. In this
>>unkerned image, the vertical line at the left of the 4-shaped glyph
>>for 'b' on the right hand side should exactly overlap with the right
>>hand side vertical of the H-shaped glyph for 'b' in the third box
>>
>>Does anyone know why I need to use -833 over my expected value of
>>-1000, because -833 seems very arbitrary to me - everything in the
>>actual glyphs is a multiples of 25px because I built them all in
>>inkscape with a load of guides to make sure all the characters would
>>be in the right place inside the 1em square box to make my job easier
>>now. Oh how naive I was.
>>
>>Many thanks in advance to anyone who knows what I'm not seeing,
>>
>>Sam Sutherland
>>
>>Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/lp4RI
>>
>>(P.S. I'm aware that the glyphs aren't too pretty - my priority is on
>>getting it working over getting it pretty - glyphs can always be
>>edited afterwards)
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>_______________________________________________
>>fontforge-users mailing list
>>[hidden email]
>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>>http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
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Re: Kerning and Weird Behaviour

Samuel Sutherland
And in my great stupidity, I attached the wrong link. Attached to this
email is the word trains as an SVG

On 22 May 2017 at 08:27, Samuel Sutherland <[hidden email]> wrote:

> http://imgur.com/a/lp4RI
>  This is what the word "trains" should look like.
> What I have right now is a differerent glyph for each character in
> each position, and each glyph is 1000px by 1000px with the actual
> glyph in the right part of the box, so that were all six glpyhs that
> would make up "trains" superimposed, this is what they'd look like.
> I realise it's quite ambitious to do this with a system that was just
> designed for more simple kerning and substitution, but I reckon it
> would be possible, if a little difficult.
>
> On 21 May 2017 at 23:26,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> You might need to explain the issues in more detail.   Can you
>> fake up an image of what you're expecting to get, using your
>> example glyphs/fragments, so we can see the difference to what
>> you are getting?  Em is not necessarily a good metric for the
>> amount to move to get perfect superimposition since in most most
>> fonts individual glyphs vary in width.
>>
>> On Sun, 21 May 2017 23:07:25 +0100, you wrote:
>>
>>>I am currently in the process of recreating a hand-written
>>>pseudo-korean script for the latin alphabet for a friend's dungeons
>>>and dragons campaign, and what this means is that multiple characters
>>>can be joined together in single blocks. This is absolutely possible
>>>to do using kern and calt to replace characters with the correct
>>>variant glyph for the part of the block they're in, and then kerning
>>>the new glyphs together.
>>>To this end, I recreated each glyph in the correct position inside a
>>>1x1em square (1000px because opentype) in inkscape, and imported the
>>>SVGs with no problems. Therefore, in order to put the characters in
>>>the right places, I should only need to kern the second glyph back by
>>>exactly 1em so that the two glyphs are superimposed, with their left
>>>bearings and right bearings aligning. Unfortunately, this is not
>>>working and the actual value that kerns the two glyphs into the right
>>>position is around -833. I've attached a link to screenshot of how they kern
>>>(roughly) correctly with a value of -833, and also a screenshot
>>>showing them being 1em apart with the calt lookup removed. In this
>>>unkerned image, the vertical line at the left of the 4-shaped glyph
>>>for 'b' on the right hand side should exactly overlap with the right
>>>hand side vertical of the H-shaped glyph for 'b' in the third box
>>>
>>>Does anyone know why I need to use -833 over my expected value of
>>>-1000, because -833 seems very arbitrary to me - everything in the
>>>actual glyphs is a multiples of 25px because I built them all in
>>>inkscape with a load of guides to make sure all the characters would
>>>be in the right place inside the 1em square box to make my job easier
>>>now. Oh how naive I was.
>>>
>>>Many thanks in advance to anyone who knows what I'm not seeing,
>>>
>>>Sam Sutherland
>>>
>>>Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/lp4RI
>>>
>>>(P.S. I'm aware that the glyphs aren't too pretty - my priority is on
>>>getting it working over getting it pretty - glyphs can always be
>>>edited afterwards)
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>fontforge-users mailing list
>>>[hidden email]
>>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>>>http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> fontforge-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>> http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html

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Re: Kerning and Weird Behaviour

MMacD
On Mon, 22 May 2017 08:28:49 +0100, you wrote:

>And in my great stupidity, I attached the wrong link. Attached to this
>email is the word trains as an SVG

I managed to load that into Inkscape under BSD, since XP didn't
way to know.  

My first thought is that, if the individual components in that
image are also the individual glyphs in the font that you want to
assemble into results like that "trains" image, I don't really
see how you ever make it work.  The pieces are very different in
size, something that font software doesn't like font glyphs to
be.

My second thought is that I don't see any superimposition.
Abutment, yes, and even partial overlap, but not superimpostion.
So are those component pieces not really glyphs in your font, or
what?

>
>On 22 May 2017 at 08:27, Samuel Sutherland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> http://imgur.com/a/lp4RI
>>  This is what the word "trains" should look like.
>> What I have right now is a differerent glyph for each character in
>> each position, and each glyph is 1000px by 1000px with the actual
>> glyph in the right part of the box, so that were all six glpyhs that
>> would make up "trains" superimposed, this is what they'd look like.
>> I realise it's quite ambitious to do this with a system that was just
>> designed for more simple kerning and substitution, but I reckon it
>> would be possible, if a little difficult.
>>
>> On 21 May 2017 at 23:26,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> You might need to explain the issues in more detail.   Can you
>>> fake up an image of what you're expecting to get, using your
>>> example glyphs/fragments, so we can see the difference to what
>>> you are getting?  Em is not necessarily a good metric for the
>>> amount to move to get perfect superimposition since in most most
>>> fonts individual glyphs vary in width.
>>>
>>> On Sun, 21 May 2017 23:07:25 +0100, you wrote:
>>>
>>>>I am currently in the process of recreating a hand-written
>>>>pseudo-korean script for the latin alphabet for a friend's dungeons
>>>>and dragons campaign, and what this means is that multiple characters
>>>>can be joined together in single blocks. This is absolutely possible
>>>>to do using kern and calt to replace characters with the correct
>>>>variant glyph for the part of the block they're in, and then kerning
>>>>the new glyphs together.
>>>>To this end, I recreated each glyph in the correct position inside a
>>>>1x1em square (1000px because opentype) in inkscape, and imported the
>>>>SVGs with no problems. Therefore, in order to put the characters in
>>>>the right places, I should only need to kern the second glyph back by
>>>>exactly 1em so that the two glyphs are superimposed, with their left
>>>>bearings and right bearings aligning. Unfortunately, this is not
>>>>working and the actual value that kerns the two glyphs into the right
>>>>position is around -833. I've attached a link to screenshot of how they kern
>>>>(roughly) correctly with a value of -833, and also a screenshot
>>>>showing them being 1em apart with the calt lookup removed. In this
>>>>unkerned image, the vertical line at the left of the 4-shaped glyph
>>>>for 'b' on the right hand side should exactly overlap with the right
>>>>hand side vertical of the H-shaped glyph for 'b' in the third box
>>>>
>>>>Does anyone know why I need to use -833 over my expected value of
>>>>-1000, because -833 seems very arbitrary to me - everything in the
>>>>actual glyphs is a multiples of 25px because I built them all in
>>>>inkscape with a load of guides to make sure all the characters would
>>>>be in the right place inside the 1em square box to make my job easier
>>>>now. Oh how naive I was.
>>>>
>>>>Many thanks in advance to anyone who knows what I'm not seeing,
>>>>
>>>>Sam Sutherland
>>>>
>>>>Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/lp4RI
>>>>
>>>>(P.S. I'm aware that the glyphs aren't too pretty - my priority is on
>>>>getting it working over getting it pretty - glyphs can always be
>>>>edited afterwards)
>>>>
>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>fontforge-users mailing list
>>>>[hidden email]
>>>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>>>>http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> fontforge-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>>> http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html

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Re: Kerning and Weird Behaviour

Samuel Sutherland
Each glyph as I have it is one of those components in the page. Imagine if you were to delete all of them bar one and then take the whole 1000px*1000px square with the letter in and that is the glyph. Every glyph in the font as I have it is 1000px wide and 1000px tall with lots of white space and only a small path in the upper left or lower right or wherever for that glyph

On 24 May 2017 11:46, <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, 22 May 2017 08:28:49 +0100, you wrote:

>And in my great stupidity, I attached the wrong link. Attached to this
>email is the word trains as an SVG

I managed to load that into Inkscape under BSD, since XP didn't
way to know.

My first thought is that, if the individual components in that
image are also the individual glyphs in the font that you want to
assemble into results like that "trains" image, I don't really
see how you ever make it work.  The pieces are very different in
size, something that font software doesn't like font glyphs to
be.

My second thought is that I don't see any superimposition.
Abutment, yes, and even partial overlap, but not superimpostion.
So are those component pieces not really glyphs in your font, or
what?

>
>On 22 May 2017 at 08:27, Samuel Sutherland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> http://imgur.com/a/lp4RI
>>  This is what the word "trains" should look like.
>> What I have right now is a differerent glyph for each character in
>> each position, and each glyph is 1000px by 1000px with the actual
>> glyph in the right part of the box, so that were all six glpyhs that
>> would make up "trains" superimposed, this is what they'd look like.
>> I realise it's quite ambitious to do this with a system that was just
>> designed for more simple kerning and substitution, but I reckon it
>> would be possible, if a little difficult.
>>
>> On 21 May 2017 at 23:26,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> You might need to explain the issues in more detail.   Can you
>>> fake up an image of what you're expecting to get, using your
>>> example glyphs/fragments, so we can see the difference to what
>>> you are getting?  Em is not necessarily a good metric for the
>>> amount to move to get perfect superimposition since in most most
>>> fonts individual glyphs vary in width.
>>>
>>> On Sun, 21 May 2017 23:07:25 +0100, you wrote:
>>>
>>>>I am currently in the process of recreating a hand-written
>>>>pseudo-korean script for the latin alphabet for a friend's dungeons
>>>>and dragons campaign, and what this means is that multiple characters
>>>>can be joined together in single blocks. This is absolutely possible
>>>>to do using kern and calt to replace characters with the correct
>>>>variant glyph for the part of the block they're in, and then kerning
>>>>the new glyphs together.
>>>>To this end, I recreated each glyph in the correct position inside a
>>>>1x1em square (1000px because opentype) in inkscape, and imported the
>>>>SVGs with no problems. Therefore, in order to put the characters in
>>>>the right places, I should only need to kern the second glyph back by
>>>>exactly 1em so that the two glyphs are superimposed, with their left
>>>>bearings and right bearings aligning. Unfortunately, this is not
>>>>working and the actual value that kerns the two glyphs into the right
>>>>position is around -833. I've attached a link to screenshot of how they kern
>>>>(roughly) correctly with a value of -833, and also a screenshot
>>>>showing them being 1em apart with the calt lookup removed. In this
>>>>unkerned image, the vertical line at the left of the 4-shaped glyph
>>>>for 'b' on the right hand side should exactly overlap with the right
>>>>hand side vertical of the H-shaped glyph for 'b' in the third box
>>>>
>>>>Does anyone know why I need to use -833 over my expected value of
>>>>-1000, because -833 seems very arbitrary to me - everything in the
>>>>actual glyphs is a multiples of 25px because I built them all in
>>>>inkscape with a load of guides to make sure all the characters would
>>>>be in the right place inside the 1em square box to make my job easier
>>>>now. Oh how naive I was.
>>>>
>>>>Many thanks in advance to anyone who knows what I'm not seeing,
>>>>
>>>>Sam Sutherland
>>>>
>>>>Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/lp4RI
>>>>
>>>>(P.S. I'm aware that the glyphs aren't too pretty - my priority is on
>>>>getting it working over getting it pretty - glyphs can always be
>>>>edited afterwards)
>>>>
>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>fontforge-users mailing list
>>>>[hidden email]
>>>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>>>>http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> fontforge-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>>> http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html

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Re: Kerning and Weird Behaviour

MMacD
By your description, it should work if you have it sorted into a
9x9 square (I think Korean also uses 9x9, as Chinese and, for
Kanji, Japanese do).  
So if it's not working, then you're doing something you don't
realise you're doing (something I experience all too frequently
myself).

Would it be at all possible for you to post your sfd file as an
attachment?  Perhaps if I loaded it and looked at it, the problem
would become visible to me--something that's very much not the
case now!

On Wed, 24 May 2017 15:08:54 +0100, you wrote:

>Each glyph as I have it is one of those components in the page. Imagine if
>you were to delete all of them bar one and then take the whole
>1000px*1000px square with the letter in and that is the glyph. Every glyph
>in the font as I have it is 1000px wide and 1000px tall with lots of white
>space and only a small path in the upper left or lower right or wherever
>for that glyph
>
>On 24 May 2017 11:46, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 22 May 2017 08:28:49 +0100, you wrote:
>>
>> >And in my great stupidity, I attached the wrong link. Attached to this
>> >email is the word trains as an SVG
>>
>> I managed to load that into Inkscape under BSD, since XP didn't
>> way to know.
>>
>> My first thought is that, if the individual components in that
>> image are also the individual glyphs in the font that you want to
>> assemble into results like that "trains" image, I don't really
>> see how you ever make it work.  The pieces are very different in
>> size, something that font software doesn't like font glyphs to
>> be.
>>
>> My second thought is that I don't see any superimposition.
>> Abutment, yes, and even partial overlap, but not superimpostion.
>> So are those component pieces not really glyphs in your font, or
>> what?
>>
>> >
>> >On 22 May 2017 at 08:27, Samuel Sutherland <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> >> http://imgur.com/a/lp4RI
>> >>  This is what the word "trains" should look like.
>> >> What I have right now is a differerent glyph for each character in
>> >> each position, and each glyph is 1000px by 1000px with the actual
>> >> glyph in the right part of the box, so that were all six glpyhs that
>> >> would make up "trains" superimposed, this is what they'd look like.
>> >> I realise it's quite ambitious to do this with a system that was just
>> >> designed for more simple kerning and substitution, but I reckon it
>> >> would be possible, if a little difficult.
>> >>
>> >> On 21 May 2017 at 23:26,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>> You might need to explain the issues in more detail.   Can you
>> >>> fake up an image of what you're expecting to get, using your
>> >>> example glyphs/fragments, so we can see the difference to what
>> >>> you are getting?  Em is not necessarily a good metric for the
>> >>> amount to move to get perfect superimposition since in most most
>> >>> fonts individual glyphs vary in width.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sun, 21 May 2017 23:07:25 +0100, you wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>I am currently in the process of recreating a hand-written
>> >>>>pseudo-korean script for the latin alphabet for a friend's dungeons
>> >>>>and dragons campaign, and what this means is that multiple characters
>> >>>>can be joined together in single blocks. This is absolutely possible
>> >>>>to do using kern and calt to replace characters with the correct
>> >>>>variant glyph for the part of the block they're in, and then kerning
>> >>>>the new glyphs together.
>> >>>>To this end, I recreated each glyph in the correct position inside a
>> >>>>1x1em square (1000px because opentype) in inkscape, and imported the
>> >>>>SVGs with no problems. Therefore, in order to put the characters in
>> >>>>the right places, I should only need to kern the second glyph back by
>> >>>>exactly 1em so that the two glyphs are superimposed, with their left
>> >>>>bearings and right bearings aligning. Unfortunately, this is not
>> >>>>working and the actual value that kerns the two glyphs into the right
>> >>>>position is around -833. I've attached a link to screenshot of how
>> they kern
>> >>>>(roughly) correctly with a value of -833, and also a screenshot
>> >>>>showing them being 1em apart with the calt lookup removed. In this
>> >>>>unkerned image, the vertical line at the left of the 4-shaped glyph
>> >>>>for 'b' on the right hand side should exactly overlap with the right
>> >>>>hand side vertical of the H-shaped glyph for 'b' in the third box
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Does anyone know why I need to use -833 over my expected value of
>> >>>>-1000, because -833 seems very arbitrary to me - everything in the
>> >>>>actual glyphs is a multiples of 25px because I built them all in
>> >>>>inkscape with a load of guides to make sure all the characters would
>> >>>>be in the right place inside the 1em square box to make my job easier
>> >>>>now. Oh how naive I was.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Many thanks in advance to anyone who knows what I'm not seeing,
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Sam Sutherland
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/lp4RI
>> >>>>
>> >>>>(P.S. I'm aware that the glyphs aren't too pretty - my priority is on
>> >>>>getting it working over getting it pretty - glyphs can always be
>> >>>>edited afterwards)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>--------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------------------
>> >>>>Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>>>engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>>>_______________________________________________
>> >>>>fontforge-users mailing list
>> >>>>[hidden email]
>> >>>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>> >>>>http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> fontforge-users mailing list
>> >>> [hidden email]
>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>> >>> http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
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>>

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Re: Kerning and Weird Behaviour

Samuel Sutherland
It's not sorted into a 9*9 square, but all of them fit a set of
guides. I've attached my SFD and an SVG containing all the guides for
the rest of the characters. At the moment, only the glyphs for the top
of each block have been put in the font, once they're working it
should be easier to make the rest work.

On 24 May 2017 at 21:10,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

> By your description, it should work if you have it sorted into a
> 9x9 square (I think Korean also uses 9x9, as Chinese and, for
> Kanji, Japanese do).
> So if it's not working, then you're doing something you don't
> realise you're doing (something I experience all too frequently
> myself).
>
> Would it be at all possible for you to post your sfd file as an
> attachment?  Perhaps if I loaded it and looked at it, the problem
> would become visible to me--something that's very much not the
> case now!
>
> On Wed, 24 May 2017 15:08:54 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>Each glyph as I have it is one of those components in the page. Imagine if
>>you were to delete all of them bar one and then take the whole
>>1000px*1000px square with the letter in and that is the glyph. Every glyph
>>in the font as I have it is 1000px wide and 1000px tall with lots of white
>>space and only a small path in the upper left or lower right or wherever
>>for that glyph
>>
>>On 24 May 2017 11:46, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 22 May 2017 08:28:49 +0100, you wrote:
>>>
>>> >And in my great stupidity, I attached the wrong link. Attached to this
>>> >email is the word trains as an SVG
>>>
>>> I managed to load that into Inkscape under BSD, since XP didn't
>>> way to know.
>>>
>>> My first thought is that, if the individual components in that
>>> image are also the individual glyphs in the font that you want to
>>> assemble into results like that "trains" image, I don't really
>>> see how you ever make it work.  The pieces are very different in
>>> size, something that font software doesn't like font glyphs to
>>> be.
>>>
>>> My second thought is that I don't see any superimposition.
>>> Abutment, yes, and even partial overlap, but not superimpostion.
>>> So are those component pieces not really glyphs in your font, or
>>> what?
>>>
>>> >
>>> >On 22 May 2017 at 08:27, Samuel Sutherland <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> http://imgur.com/a/lp4RI
>>> >>  This is what the word "trains" should look like.
>>> >> What I have right now is a differerent glyph for each character in
>>> >> each position, and each glyph is 1000px by 1000px with the actual
>>> >> glyph in the right part of the box, so that were all six glpyhs that
>>> >> would make up "trains" superimposed, this is what they'd look like.
>>> >> I realise it's quite ambitious to do this with a system that was just
>>> >> designed for more simple kerning and substitution, but I reckon it
>>> >> would be possible, if a little difficult.
>>> >>
>>> >> On 21 May 2017 at 23:26,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> >>> You might need to explain the issues in more detail.   Can you
>>> >>> fake up an image of what you're expecting to get, using your
>>> >>> example glyphs/fragments, so we can see the difference to what
>>> >>> you are getting?  Em is not necessarily a good metric for the
>>> >>> amount to move to get perfect superimposition since in most most
>>> >>> fonts individual glyphs vary in width.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Sun, 21 May 2017 23:07:25 +0100, you wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>>I am currently in the process of recreating a hand-written
>>> >>>>pseudo-korean script for the latin alphabet for a friend's dungeons
>>> >>>>and dragons campaign, and what this means is that multiple characters
>>> >>>>can be joined together in single blocks. This is absolutely possible
>>> >>>>to do using kern and calt to replace characters with the correct
>>> >>>>variant glyph for the part of the block they're in, and then kerning
>>> >>>>the new glyphs together.
>>> >>>>To this end, I recreated each glyph in the correct position inside a
>>> >>>>1x1em square (1000px because opentype) in inkscape, and imported the
>>> >>>>SVGs with no problems. Therefore, in order to put the characters in
>>> >>>>the right places, I should only need to kern the second glyph back by
>>> >>>>exactly 1em so that the two glyphs are superimposed, with their left
>>> >>>>bearings and right bearings aligning. Unfortunately, this is not
>>> >>>>working and the actual value that kerns the two glyphs into the right
>>> >>>>position is around -833. I've attached a link to screenshot of how
>>> they kern
>>> >>>>(roughly) correctly with a value of -833, and also a screenshot
>>> >>>>showing them being 1em apart with the calt lookup removed. In this
>>> >>>>unkerned image, the vertical line at the left of the 4-shaped glyph
>>> >>>>for 'b' on the right hand side should exactly overlap with the right
>>> >>>>hand side vertical of the H-shaped glyph for 'b' in the third box
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>Does anyone know why I need to use -833 over my expected value of
>>> >>>>-1000, because -833 seems very arbitrary to me - everything in the
>>> >>>>actual glyphs is a multiples of 25px because I built them all in
>>> >>>>inkscape with a load of guides to make sure all the characters would
>>> >>>>be in the right place inside the 1em square box to make my job easier
>>> >>>>now. Oh how naive I was.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>Many thanks in advance to anyone who knows what I'm not seeing,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>Sam Sutherland
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/lp4RI
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>(P.S. I'm aware that the glyphs aren't too pretty - my priority is on
>>> >>>>getting it working over getting it pretty - glyphs can always be
>>> >>>>edited afterwards)
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>> ----------------------
>>> >>>>Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>>>engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>>>_______________________________________________
>>> >>>>fontforge-users mailing list
>>> >>>>[hidden email]
>>> >>>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>>> >>>>http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> fontforge-users mailing list
>>> >>> [hidden email]
>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>>> >>> http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> fontforge-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>>> http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html
>>>
>
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
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Re: Kerning and Weird Behaviour

MMacD
Merde!  That was a brain-bender.  

Basically, you can't get to where you want to go from where
you're at now.

The problem is somewhat comparable to calligraphic Arabic (also
an alphabetic writing system. Look at the calligraphic alJazeera
logo and try to imagine the font that could create it.  The chars
are a-l-j-a-z-i-r-a.  There is no such font.  Despite the beauty
of Arabic calligraphy, fonts for mundane use are nearly all
written to a baseline and look rather ugly and mechanical, which
they are, to the native reader.  But that's as much as can be
done with current technology.

Unfortunately for you, Unicode came about in part because there
really is no display driver in use today (that I know of, anyhow)
that "paints" bits and pieces onto the screen to compose each
glyph.  So all chars in all fonts, pretty much, no matter whether
they're simple Latin chars with diacritics or godawful Hanzi
chars combining 8 different radicals, are complete in every cell.
Which is why a basic real-Hangul font is about 11000 chars!  (Out
of curiosity, why didn't you just grab  glyphs from a real Hangul
font?  Or was it for that very reason: you took one look at that
11000 lower bound and decided "not in THIS lifetime!"?)

Unless you want to write your own display driver, the best you
can do is follow the Hangul model which looks like a 2x2 square
for most glyphs.  Since English is alphabetic rather than
syllabic you can get away with a 1Wx2H model.  Standard display
drivers expect to advance their pointer across the screen after
every char, so that constrains your choices pretty completely, as
it does everyone's.  

One choice is to carry on as you're doing, but shrink your cell
size til there's nothing left on any side, and then create
several space chars to use wherever needed.  Then you could
"paint" by consuming more than one editor line for each
composite-glyph line, moving up and down between words.  The
words would have to be output as images, not as characters.

Another choice, closer to real Hangul, would be to create all
possible vertical combinations (the 1Wx2H cel), and then
carefully figure out each time how to combine them to represent
the words you want.  So to write "trains" in the way that sample
was composed, which was (if spaces get thrown away, this likely
won't look so good to you as it does now to me)

t  r   top-of-i
a1    a2  middle-of-i
n       s  bottom-of-i

But that's a 1x3 cell, not 1x2.    Using 1x3 cells would
definitely create an overly-complex font for not much benefit,
though, and 2-char and odd-count words would always cause
problems in composition.  Your "trains" word, being even-count,
should have been, for ease in designing and writing, based on a
1x2 cell making "trains" a 3x2 word,

t a n
r i s

or

t r a
i n s

The cell count would be (26 x 26) + 26 with all odd chars being
represented vertically by their own 1x2 cell.  Trying to include
more freedom would increase the cell budget exponentially and,
again, for not much benefit.  I certainly wouldn't do it because
I'm sure there'll be enough visual interest without more freedom
than you already get with 26x26+26.  

The nice thing is that using such a font  doesn't require
displaying the output as an image.


On Thu, 25 May 2017 08:30:24 +0100, you wrote:

>It's not sorted into a 9*9 square, but all of them fit a set of
>guides. I've attached my SFD and an SVG containing all the guides for
>the rest of the characters. At the moment, only the glyphs for the top
>of each block have been put in the font, once they're working it
>should be easier to make the rest work.
>
>On 24 May 2017 at 21:10,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> By your description, it should work if you have it sorted into a
>> 9x9 square (I think Korean also uses 9x9, as Chinese and, for
>> Kanji, Japanese do).
>> So if it's not working, then you're doing something you don't
>> realise you're doing (something I experience all too frequently
>> myself).
>>
>> Would it be at all possible for you to post your sfd file as an
>> attachment?  Perhaps if I loaded it and looked at it, the problem
>> would become visible to me--something that's very much not the
>> case now!
>>
>> On Wed, 24 May 2017 15:08:54 +0100, you wrote:
>>
>>>Each glyph as I have it is one of those components in the page. Imagine if
>>>you were to delete all of them bar one and then take the whole
>>>1000px*1000px square with the letter in and that is the glyph. Every glyph
>>>in the font as I have it is 1000px wide and 1000px tall with lots of white
>>>space and only a small path in the upper left or lower right or wherever
>>>for that glyph
>>>
>>>On 24 May 2017 11:46, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 22 May 2017 08:28:49 +0100, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >And in my great stupidity, I attached the wrong link. Attached to this
>>>> >email is the word trains as an SVG
>>>>
>>>> I managed to load that into Inkscape under BSD, since XP didn't
>>>> way to know.
>>>>
>>>> My first thought is that, if the individual components in that
>>>> image are also the individual glyphs in the font that you want to
>>>> assemble into results like that "trains" image, I don't really
>>>> see how you ever make it work.  The pieces are very different in
>>>> size, something that font software doesn't like font glyphs to
>>>> be.
>>>>
>>>> My second thought is that I don't see any superimposition.
>>>> Abutment, yes, and even partial overlap, but not superimpostion.
>>>> So are those component pieces not really glyphs in your font, or
>>>> what?
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >On 22 May 2017 at 08:27, Samuel Sutherland <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> http://imgur.com/a/lp4RI
>>>> >>  This is what the word "trains" should look like.
>>>> >> What I have right now is a differerent glyph for each character in
>>>> >> each position, and each glyph is 1000px by 1000px with the actual
>>>> >> glyph in the right part of the box, so that were all six glpyhs that
>>>> >> would make up "trains" superimposed, this is what they'd look like.
>>>> >> I realise it's quite ambitious to do this with a system that was just
>>>> >> designed for more simple kerning and substitution, but I reckon it
>>>> >> would be possible, if a little difficult.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 21 May 2017 at 23:26,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> >>> You might need to explain the issues in more detail.   Can you
>>>> >>> fake up an image of what you're expecting to get, using your
>>>> >>> example glyphs/fragments, so we can see the difference to what
>>>> >>> you are getting?  Em is not necessarily a good metric for the
>>>> >>> amount to move to get perfect superimposition since in most most
>>>> >>> fonts individual glyphs vary in width.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Sun, 21 May 2017 23:07:25 +0100, you wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>>I am currently in the process of recreating a hand-written
>>>> >>>>pseudo-korean script for the latin alphabet for a friend's dungeons
>>>> >>>>and dragons campaign, and what this means is that multiple characters
>>>> >>>>can be joined together in single blocks. This is absolutely possible
>>>> >>>>to do using kern and calt to replace characters with the correct
>>>> >>>>variant glyph for the part of the block they're in, and then kerning
>>>> >>>>the new glyphs together.
>>>> >>>>To this end, I recreated each glyph in the correct position inside a
>>>> >>>>1x1em square (1000px because opentype) in inkscape, and imported the
>>>> >>>>SVGs with no problems. Therefore, in order to put the characters in
>>>> >>>>the right places, I should only need to kern the second glyph back by
>>>> >>>>exactly 1em so that the two glyphs are superimposed, with their left
>>>> >>>>bearings and right bearings aligning. Unfortunately, this is not
>>>> >>>>working and the actual value that kerns the two glyphs into the right
>>>> >>>>position is around -833. I've attached a link to screenshot of how
>>>> they kern
>>>> >>>>(roughly) correctly with a value of -833, and also a screenshot
>>>> >>>>showing them being 1em apart with the calt lookup removed. In this
>>>> >>>>unkerned image, the vertical line at the left of the 4-shaped glyph
>>>> >>>>for 'b' on the right hand side should exactly overlap with the right
>>>> >>>>hand side vertical of the H-shaped glyph for 'b' in the third box
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>Does anyone know why I need to use -833 over my expected value of
>>>> >>>>-1000, because -833 seems very arbitrary to me - everything in the
>>>> >>>>actual glyphs is a multiples of 25px because I built them all in
>>>> >>>>inkscape with a load of guides to make sure all the characters would
>>>> >>>>be in the right place inside the 1em square box to make my job easier
>>>> >>>>now. Oh how naive I was.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>Many thanks in advance to anyone who knows what I'm not seeing,
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>Sam Sutherland
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/lp4RI
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>(P.S. I'm aware that the glyphs aren't too pretty - my priority is on
>>>> >>>>getting it working over getting it pretty - glyphs can always be
>>>> >>>>edited afterwards)
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ----------------------
>>>> >>>>Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> >>>>engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>fontforge-users mailing list
>>>> >>>>[hidden email]
>>>> >>>>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>>>> >>>>http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ------------------
>>>> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> fontforge-users mailing list
>>>> >>> [hidden email]
>>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>>>> >>> http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> fontforge-users mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>>>> http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html
>>>>
>>
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Re: Kerning and Weird Behaviour

MMacD
In reply to this post by Samuel Sutherland
url for that Hangul font:
https://i1.wp.com/www.keytokorean.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/full-character-list-HYGothic-Medium.jpg

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Re: Kerning and Weird Behaviour

MMacD
In reply to this post by Samuel Sutherland
Attached is a quick scratch font with only 3 cells populated.
Typing "tra" will produce

t r a
i n s

in your current glyphs.

I modified the proportions because each component in a non-Latin
East Asian or South Asian font is expected to expand or shrink to
visually fill its part of the alloted space.  I left a bit of air
at the sides to show where the joins are, but you probably want
no horizontal space within a word, and to use a defined space
character to separate words.

No disrespect to your chars or the considerable effort that went
into them, but were I creating that font I'd probably steal the
closest-to-sound actual Hangul glyphs since they have a
centuries-long history of being nice-looking together, and
despite my background as a commercial artist, calligrapher, and
polyglot, I'd be pretty sure that (a) I couldn't invent anything
better and (b) probably would end up having spent a lot of time
trying and in the end have to steal their glyphs anyway!

Hope that helps.

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