How to determine a font's natural size?
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How to determine a font's natural size?
 
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Good stuff, Evan! I think you passed the test! Do you know there is a Fontforge design manual online? It’s well worth going through from the beginning, but here’s the page about concepts pertaining to size: http://designwithfontforge.com/en-US/The_EM_Square.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ fontforge-users mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html |
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Thanks again, Gé and scratch65535.
So, equipped with my new understanding of how fontsize works, I related this to the person who had originally told me that font size is part of the font information. He dismissed my explanation, insisting that I was wrong, and gave the following as a counter-example. If you execute otfinfo -z /Library/Fonts/ebgaramond/EBGaramond12-Regular.otf the output is design size 12 pt, size range (9.5 pt, 120 pt], subfamily ID 1, subfamily name Regular' What have you guys got to say to this? On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 4:04 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote: Pretty much, yes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ fontforge-users mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html |
Re: How to determine a font's natural size?
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that's from https://github.com/kohler/lcdf-typetools https://github.com/kohler/lcdf-typetools/blob/master/otfinfo/otfinfo.cc#L312-L336 shows that it is reporting the 'size' feature. This exists in very few fonts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ fontforge-users mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html |
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In reply to this post by Evan Aad
What I would say is that your informant is misinterpreting what
he's seeing. Note that the Garamond example he cites does not refer to "a" size, but rather a size *range*. That tells anyone who's used to designing with type that that particular *instance* of Garamond should be used with caution and preferably avoided when spec'ing out "fine print" text (8pt and below). It's a heuristic hint about use, not a size. On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 18:53:48 +0300, Evan Åd wrote: >Thanks again, Gé and scratch65535. > >So, equipped with my new understanding of how fontsize works, I related >this to the person who had originally told me that font size is part of the >font information. > >He dismissed my explanation, insisting that I was wrong, and gave the >following as a counter-example. If you execute > >otfinfo -z /Library/Fonts/ebgaramond/EBGaramond12-Regular.otf > >the output is > >design size 12 pt, size range (9.5 pt, 120 pt], subfamily ID 1, subfamily >name Regular' > >What have you guys got to say to this? > > > >On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 4:04 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Pretty much, yes. >> >> To visualise it more easily, think about designing for physical >> type. >> >> Imagine that, for reasons best known to yourself if anyone, you >> decide to put visible glyphs on greatly-oversized slugs. >> >> So for every slug size ( = point size) you put a glyph on the >> baseline that's the same size a superscript glyph would be on a >> normal font. So if your x height in a normal 10pt font would be, >> say, 6pt, and the superscript would be, say, 3pt, you put those >> 3pt glyphs on the slugs instead of 6pt glyphs, leaving 7pt of air >> rather thn 4.. >> >> Now, with physical type there's no way to decrease the line size >> below that of the slug's height except by physically mutilating >> every slug. So anyone who uses your new font is going to have >> *very* well-spaced lines. No matter that they're composing in >> 12pt "set solid" (no leading, aka "12 on 12" or "12/12" ), it's >> going to look Really Weird. >> >> That's what the "natural size" is all about: filling up the >> slugs such that, set solid, your font presents a pleasing, >> readable appearance with just enough air around each glyph not to >> make the glyphs/lines look jammed-together. >> >> Hope that image helps. >> >> On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 11:18:09 +0300, you wrote: >> >> >Thank you! This was very clear and helpful. Let me see if I got it. Please >> >let me know whether the following statements are correct. >> > >> >1. All the glyphs in a given typeface are designed on a canvas that is the >> >same height, and this height is measured in length units called upm, >> right? >> >Different glyphs may be designed on canvases of different widths, but they >> >always have the same height. >> > >> >2. The typeface has a numerical property 'baseline' that designates a >> point >> >along the canvas's left edge where the canvas's origin is, so for instance >> >a Times New Roman's baseline property might be '20' which means that the >> >origin of every canvas on which Times New Roman glyphs are designed lies >> >along the canvas's left edge 20% above the bottom edge. >> > >> >3. When a rendering engine, like a PDF driver, wants to typeset a >> character >> >of a certain typeface, the engine itself must provide the physical size; >> >this information is not part of the typeface. >> > >> >4. Suppose a rendering engine wants to typeset a certain character at some >> >size, say 14pt, the engine doesn't even have to know what character it is, >> >and whether it's upright or italic, etc., in order to allocate the correct >> >amount of vertical space, since all 14pt glyphs of the typeface will >> occupy >> >the same total amount of vertical space, where by 'total' I mean that said >> >space includes the space above and below the actual glyph. The horizontal >> >space depends on the character, but not the vertical space. >> > >> >5. When the engine gets down to actually drawing a glyph at a certain >> >coordinate on the page, it identifies this page coordinate with the origin >> >of the glyph's canvas, and it defines 1upm to be equal to >> >fontsize-in-pt/canvas-height-in-upm (e.g. 14pt/1000upm). >> > >> >On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 10:20 AM, Abraham Lee <[hidden email] >> > >> > wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 11:53 PM Evan Aad <[hidden email]> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Thank you, Abraham, but this is not quite what I don't understand. Let >> me >> >>> try to explain myself better. >> >> >> >> >> >> Let me try again... >> >> >> >> Suppose I'm a printer living in England 200 years ago, and suppose I >> wish >> >>> to print an upright 'a' in the 'Times' typeface. I consult a list of >> the >> >>> available font sizes for Times and see that the available sizes are >> 10pt, >> >>> 11pt and 14pt. I decide to use 14pt. I open the cabinet where the Times >> >>> printing blocks are stored, open the drawer with the label '14pt', and >> take >> >>> out the 'upright' tray from which I take the 'a' block. >> >>> >> >> >> >> When you take an 'a' from this 14pt drawer, the block is physically 14pt >> >> tall, not the 'a' shape itself. It probably occupies more like 7pt of >> >> vertical space on the block, with 4pt empty space above and 3pt below >> it. >> >> This 14pt set was filed and punched to this specific size, meaning that >> the >> >> design was adjusted to be optically correct at this size. Likewise the >> 10pt >> >> case, which has smaller blocks, has letter forms specifically tuned to >> look >> >> good at that size, but still look like those in the 14pt case. >> >> >> >> Now suppose I am a PDF driver in a macOS operating system instructed to >> >>> print an upright 14pt Times New Roman 'a' at a certain coordinate on a >> >>> page. What are my next steps? >> >>> >> >> >> >> Fundamentally, we're talking about something else entirely now because >> we >> >> no longer have distinct blocks for different sizes*. In Times New Roman >> >> (and I'm making these numbers up since I'm not at a normal computer to >> >> check, but I think you'll get the idea), the letter a's height is 450 >> upm >> >> (units-per-em), where a normal font's full height (or "em") goes from >> -200 >> >> to +800 upm = 1000. These numbers have no correlation to a real printed >> >> dimension (like 14pt), they just provide a relative scale to base >> >> everything off of. >> >> >> >> When you send instructions to the PDF driver to print the letter 'a' at >> >> 14pt, what ends up happening is the font's em gets scaled to be >> physically >> >> so that 14pt = 1000upm, which means that the font extends below the >> >> baseline by 14*-200/1000 = -2.8pt, and likewise extends above the >> baseline >> >> by 11.2pt. By the same math, we determine the 'a' will end up being >> drawn >> >> with a height of 14*450/1000 = 6.3pt. Only now does the font have a >> "size" >> >> in the printed sense. >> >> >> >> There is an OpenType feature "size" which may be used to designate an >> >> intended printed size (similar to the physical blocks), but more often >> than >> >> not, it isn't used or the apps that use the fonts don't utilize it. >> >> Instead, the font designer may designate a size category such as >> "caption", >> >> "text", "subheading", "display", "poster", etc. in the name of the font >> to >> >> hint that the design is better suited for a particular size range. You >> will >> >> usually only find this naming convention if there are multiple optical >> >> weights in the font's family. Most likely, however, such a distinction >> is >> >> not part of the font's design, and the font had no intended print size. >> >> Some do, some don't. Most won't tell you specifically, only notionally >> and >> >> that's not likely stored as a number in the font. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Abraham >> >> >> >> *Unless the designer creates multiple optical sizes of the same font, >> but >> >> this is less common and even then, there's nothing stopping you from >> using >> >> a design at 36pt that was intended for 6pt print. >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 7:10 AM, Abraham Lee < >> [hidden email] >> >>> > wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hi, Evan! >> >>>> >> >>>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 8:42 PM, Evan Aad <[hidden email]> >> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Thanks, Gé. So when I ask some typeface for a certain character at >> >>>>> size, say, 18pt. What is it exactly that is 18pt? Samuel gave an >> answer >> >>>>> before that I though I understood, but now I'm not so sure any more, >> since >> >>>>> different characters have a different height, for instance, h vs. c. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Sorting out the terms in typography is confusing at first, but very >> >>>> important. Historically, the "point size" of a font (or typeface) was >> >>>> the measure of the bottom of the lowest decender (like bottom of "q" >> and >> >>>> "j") to the top of the highest ascender (like the top of "l" or "h"). >> >>>> Inside a modern font these two numbers exist, regardless of the shape >> of >> >>>> the glyphs (but will closely match on well-designed/defined fonts) and >> >>>> generally define the distance from one line to the next. This is the >> >>>> measurement you are technically talking about when you say "I want >> the font >> >>>> to be 18pt". In other words, the font is scaled so that the distance >> from >> >>>> the descent line to the ascent line is 18pt. >> >>>> >> >>>> There are so many important typography >> >>>> terms to know. For me, I found the following graphic to be REALLY >> >>>> helpful when I was trying to understand font lingo. >> >>>> >> >>>> https://abigailfeniza.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/anatomy-of-type.png >> >>>> >> >>>> Hope that helps, >> >>>> Abraham >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>>> ------------------ >> >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> fontforge-users mailing list >> >>>> [hidden email] >> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users >> >>>> http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html >> >>>> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>> ------------------ >> >>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> >>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot______ >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> fontforge-users mailing list >> >>> [hidden email] >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users >> >>> http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ------------------ >> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> fontforge-users mailing list >> >> [hidden email] >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users >> >> http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------------------ >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot >> _______________________________________________ >> fontforge-users mailing list >> [hidden email] >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users >> http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ fontforge-users mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users http://fontforge.10959.n7.nabble.com/User-f8781.html |
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